kage2020
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Post by kage2020 on Jul 8, 2011 16:26:04 GMT -5
...I think the Ad-Mec is more like a union... I was going to disagree with this premise but... well, in the long-run it could be useful if not necessarily definitive. I do think that your description (obviously!) errs on the side of focusing--perhaps myopically so--on the idea of the Adeptus Mechanicus as principle producers with everything else being a "back-street operator." I think that it might be partially because of the focus on manufacturing, but there is as of yet little discussion about the difference between the ability to produce a technology (which ultimately just needs rote) and the ability to understand why something is done (i.e. theory). This frees up the world quiet a bit at the lower end. It allows people to carry on much as they do on our world, the only time things start to close ranks if it you try and climb the ladder. I tentatively agree, but I think that we're coming at it from different angles so the importance of different aspects may be emphasised or pushing into the background from one to the other. Getting back to organization at the higher levels, there is a correlation between the level or ability and the tier of manufacturing. Here again with that emphasis on manufacture, whereas I would submit that the Adeptus Mechanicus is not just about building stuff but about knowing stuff as well. Obviously their manufacturing infrastructure is important to them, but it's only one half of the coin and that is what truly gets into the debate on the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" versus the "Adeptus Me-can-icus." So here: Tier 1: Me-can-icus Tier 2: Half and half. Tier 3: Me-can't-icus This is where I tentatively agree, though I don't agree with the terms that you have used feeling that this is more appropriate: Tier 1: Cult MechanicusTier 2: Lay members of the Adeptus Mechanicus (they're in the "union") Tier 3: Non-initiates The "union" aspect comes out that you're either in the gang (the Adeptus Mechanicus) or are affiliated with the gang and play by their rules. On the bright side you get to work in gang territory, get their protection, and generally the rates are going to be higher for your "job" than outside of the union. This is basically the "carrot" approach. Tier 3, as you might put it, is more complex. It's formed of individuals that have independent knowledge of technology, or the kind of people that would have existed before the Imperium came to the world. They're not in the gang but ultimately that doesn't really matter since they don't have anything to bring to the game that is a threat to the Adeptus Mechanicus. When they do? When these independents reach a point that would "worry" the Adeptus Mechanicus, they get "invited" to the Cult Mechanicus. In the long-run, such a setting would ultimately lead to full integration of the Adeptus Mechanicus in the same kind of acculturation that we see of the Imperial Cult. Hundreds of years and you're left with the homeostatic--basically the static--Imperium. At that point you're left with your decision as to how lessez faire the Imperium gets with government such that all worlds in the Imperium are going to be basically the same (assuming that they have not recently been contacted) or, since GW seems to find that "boring," you have the notion that the worlds are different and you're going to get various levels of integration. A bit more hazy, but just as functional. With reference to the "Adeptus Me-can-icus/Me-can't-icus," I think that we've walked that one to joined interpretation, i.e. the higher up in the Cult Mechanicus that you are, the more likely that you're going to have access to the "higher mysteries" of that organisation. At the lower ranks? It's "Me-can't-icus" all the way. Hell, an Independent could have more knowledge of how technology works, at least until you reach the rubicon of Cult Mechanicus knowledge. It is much easier to control the higher end than the lower end. Agreed. Tier 1 and 2 are opting into the system of control, so they're obviously easier to control. The Independents need merely be observed, which only really becomes an issue with an advanced world and there it becomes easier to "track" tech-heresy. Though that is not to say that they would control all computational technologies. For example, there's no reason to say that a world couldn't create advanced semiconductor computers and be fine as long as they didn't go to certain (AI) levels, though chances are they would get smacked down before that. After all, putting the word "cogitator" on a box of Wheatabix isn't going to get you fried in an electric chair. I would suggest it is not very hard. That level of tech manufacturing is noticeable. Once identified the Ad-Mec move in and take over. Again, you're ultimately going for "total control" system, which I would argue is unnecessary. It's brutish and inefficient for organisations that work on a larger timescale. Indeed, the only major problem is the fundamental lack of plausibility when it comes to the Imperium as a social organisation.  If "total control" is a requirement for your interpretation of the Adeptus Mechanicus...? The whole "perfect system" thing...? Then that is going to represent a pretty fundamental break in the discussion and would have to be henceforth ignored to continue the discussion progressively. The 40k universe is easy to break.  |
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Post by Philip S on Jul 9, 2011 8:13:57 GMT -5
Seems fair. I was thinking that with the introduction of Tier 4, and even 5, that it could be; 1-3 Cult Mechanicus (Magos 1, Priest 2, Initiate 3)? This is just the manufacturing side, there is also maintenance and running tech (all part of their service agreements). As for 'total control' no more than Stalin, Pol Pot, or Saddam Hussein  The point I was trying to make is that the system I am outlining is what the Ad-Mec want to do. Their grand plan, their MO. Once their ideals clash with reality and resource management there are degrees to which this can be implemented. However it is all pushing towards the same result. I imagine that the Ad-Mec will seize higher tech manufacturing if they can, or worm their way in if they can't. They play a long game if they have to. They are driven by a strong desire for knowledge and a need to control technology. Strong desires and drives, based on religious zeal, are hard to suppress. I can see them taking on a crusader mentality if denied. They can turn righteously angry when someone they see as having no claim stands between them and their rightful property. This is probably the most interesting aspect of the Ad-Mec religious angle; is the fact they will not give up, they are constantly pushing for control, for power, for more technology. In a way they cannot be reasoned with: they may agree to 'unfavorable'* terms due to circumstance, even if not in their interest, but they will make a move for full control sooner of later - by hook or by crook. * i.e. fair and reasonable agreements This is all the grand plan, what they want, the end result is not going to be much different from your take. It's in the final rendering that we meet. I'm very interested in your take. I'm flexible on this. I not saying this all has to be this way, I'm putting forward ideas to see what you think. It inspires me with new ideas. Philip |
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kage2020
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Post by kage2020 on Jul 9, 2011 13:46:23 GMT -5
Okay, for the next few days I am probably only going to have access to the internet through the tablet, if only because I am lazy anddo not want to lug around the tablet PC if I do not have to. So sweets and sorrows because of it. Sweets means that my replies are probably going to be very brief, but sorrows means it will lack my traditional formatting and may come up short with the explanations. Are you not now conflating the difference between manufacturing and the Cult Mechanicus, or at least ones investment or position within it? The caveat here might be that you are referring to vertical vs. horizontal social movement. The structure of the Adeptus Mechanicus could be labyrinthine, with differences between the manufacturing and other sections. For an example, consider the likely retconned Chambers Historical and Theoretic of the Inquisition. (I still use them, though. They make the Inquisition far more interesting thanvthey are currently represented! ) Oh, you make that point about the structure yourself. Too many assumptions in the in and of itself. Also, look what happened to them. Is your Imperium static or dynamic, etc. My point remains that iris quite simply not necessary, further, actually removes much of what I perceive as interesting about the Adeptus Mechanicus as a mystery cult. Again, though, as noted above this mightbe one ofthose topics that cannot be touched without threatening further discussion. I know that is easy to lambaster religion. I do it all the time. With that said there is no real reason to do so at this juncture other than conforming to the cliches of GW (which might be important to some). In this case I would just point out that muchvof the technology on worlds is going to be beneath their notice. Sure, those factories that are experimenting on quantum teleportation are in trouble, but the pottery kiln or the valve tube factory might not be as pressing for, well, ever. Thus I'm not being sold on your axis of power as your are articulating it... |
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Post by maldur on Jul 12, 2011 2:44:08 GMT -5
I see the hierarchy within the admech more like a web of power. Individual priests, kabals, forges, techshrines all work in this gigantic ever shifting peckingorder/reputation/kudo status. this web has several zones or tiers based on realisation/knowledge level. If a priest has gained enough status, and relaises how raw theoretiocal knowledge can lead to new tech. He is in the higher echelons. he has enough personal wealth/knowledge/political savvy to stay at this level. Then there is the lowest level, where the initiates work, they have practical knowledge, and started to gain the skills and implants of a admech adherent. Without any real theoretical knowledge to back up their practical skills they work on rote and implant instruction. Between those two groups is a group od techpriests that are gaining knowledge and slowly become intergrated within the power web. I think the mindset shifts from devotional/religious as an initiate, to more scientific/technical as a higher echelon techpriest. If one strays on this path to enlightenment the label heretek seems logical. tHe same goes for a techpriest that gains to much status too soon, the threat of an upstart can be reason for a higher up to stomp down with a battalion skitarii. Most likely the admech does show a more whole face (sensor cluster) to the outside world. As for 'total control' no more than Stalin, Pol Pot, or Saddam Hussein I would say the control is more like scientology, or the catholic church. Within the established empire I would say that the power of believe creates alot of control over technology. If you know that machines are controlled by machine spirits,, and only a techpriest can really talk to a machine spirit that is sick/unwilling/malicious. You will get a techpriest if there is a need, and you will respect him. In the same way wou will not open a panel that says omnisiah only. And as mass media seems to be in control of the admech (at least technically) as well, brainwashing(preaching) should be well established. That could also be why the admech goes after "other" sources of high technology with such verocity, they have less control in those instances. Xeno tech, lost tech, and "new tech", are a threat to the control systems in place, besides offering new goodies. |
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Post by maldur on Jul 12, 2011 2:51:31 GMT -5
Laymembers and technology users have less direct control, I can see promising members of the public getting preferentianl treatment in implants and initiation into the cult.
The acting like unions, and monopolised or controlled training seems like a good control tool, besides the religious control, and cultural truth of the machinespirit.
The is also a good opertunity for control indirectly. a cargo-8 truck might not be very high tech, but certain components might, and the machines to create set truck can be easily cult controlled.
IMHO the SCT has such a reputation that a "new" model might not sell, as it isnt "proven".
The same as we would say , I have this fantastic new knife, it is great, I am glad I got rid of the old one. While the imperial culture seems to be more, my knife is ancient, I am so honoured to use it, I would not want a new blade.
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kage2020
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Post by kage2020 on Jul 12, 2011 16:40:14 GMT -5
Okay, trying to get a reply out before I'm back on the plane heading back State-side. Since maldur replied--and with some cool ideas, I think--I thought that I would try and knock out a response before my wife stares me to death with a look in her eye that says "Packing?" Forgive me, though, I'm not going to fight with the TFM quote system since it sucks. Go Systems Theory. Hell, even more appropriately it check out "Law of Cybernetics" (IIRC--it's been a while since I went through archaeology theory, but give me a month and I'll have to get back up to speed on that one!). I think that I agree with the sentiment, but really wouldn't want to assume too much. As I'm seeing it at the moment the general structure of the Adeptus Mechanicus is breaking down into a number of categories that makes canonical sense. For example, one of our dominant sets in our hypothetical Venn/systems diagram would be "Forge," which then subsequently keys into the hierarchy of the Cult Mechanicus but also the nature of interactions between the various organisations ("colleges?") and individuals within sub-sets of those larger sets... Hmmn, personally I'm rather fond of the idea that the lowest runs of the Adeptus Mechanicus are part of the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" category. The people that get singled out for attention by the higher members of the Cult Mechanicus are those that break the mould and draw attention to themselves. These are the people that are "apprenticed," or are otherwise fast-tracked. Everyone else? They're the people that Phil talks about as the lowest rung, the people that don't know what they're talking about and don't really want to know. What this does is create a number of separate tracks, e.g. generic progression up the ranks and two separate "apprenticed" ranks, one of which is orthodox (Me-can't-icus) or radical (Me-can-icus). Those terms aren't the best, but we're building here. The one thing that I like about the above is that it doesn't require that both groups gain knowledge except through a collector stance with regards to the orthodoxy. (If that makes sense.) While I mentioned the "line" earlier, drawing from Abnett's Eisenhorn and the description that Pontius Glaw narrates to Eisenhorn, I'm not sure that I would l like to move along the route that it is between "not knowledge" and "knowledge." I know, I know... We're using the terms "Adeptus Me-can-icus" and "Adeptus Me-can't-icus," but beyond broad brush strokes those terms might be slightly misleading. With that said, the trend seems clear. Interesting. I'm going to have to read up on the subject before I can comment further. I've got a few classes to give when I get back, and then a whole sled of work, but hopefully I'll be able to fit the reading in between all that. No, I think that I'm going to disagree with this. It requires too much of a specific interpretation of the 40k universe. This is one of the reasons that I mention "technological diffusion" amongst other things. For me it is quite clear that "media control" doesn't come down to the kind of simplistic argument that we're normally faced with, i.e. "Adeptus Mechanicaus = Technology = TVs" or "Adeptus Ministorum = Education= Propaganda." Not public. Lay-members being co-opted into the Cult Mechanicus because they have no choice. For example, imagine Einstein would have been SoL with his choices. On a world of the Imperium, this genius--this savant--would have been faced with a choice given his radical vision of reality, a vision that would have encroached on the territory of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Now the problem that Einstein faces is whether his Inquisitor is an orthodox or a "radical" member of the Cult Mechanicus. Are they someone that feels that questioning the whole writ is a good thing, or are they seeing exploration and questioning in service to the central tenets of the Machine God...? * * * Okay, I think that I'm done for now. My apologies for my lack of explanation, but hopefully I'll get some more time over the next few days. |
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Post by Philip S on Jul 13, 2011 6:31:18 GMT -5
I would say the control is more like scientology, or the catholic church. Which era of the Catholic Church? When if comes to religion we have two religions co-existing (Ad-Mec and the Imperial church). The two kinda get along, and a possible model could be the Muslims and Christians back in the day, when Christians where tolerated (Christians were children of the book). Or Jews within Christian dominated societies (and we know that doesn't always work out). Getting back to the organization side of things; Manufacturing is only one part of the whole. I'm using manufacturing to show how it can be divided up into levels of knowledge. The same divisions can be applied to other branches of the Ad-mec; academia, design (an interesting aspect to explore in regard to the Ad-Mec), maintenance, and running the more advanced tech. Humans can handle a fair bit of basic technology before we start scratching our heads. A lot of mechanical items can be taken apart and put back together without reference to a book. There is a lot of tech humans would be familiar with, and lot of tech before the Ad-Mec get involved. In our world, and purely as a placeholder to illustrate the point, the Ad-Mec would control 'electronics' (I do not think they use electronics as we understand it). The would be less concerned with purely mechanical, and basic electronics. An example would be the internal combustion engine. An old style engine with a carburetor is pretty simple, and most can understand it. A newer style engine with fuel injection system/ engine management starts to become a bit of a pain and requires specialist gear.
In the above example the Ad-Mec would only be interesting in the fuel injection/ engine management part of the engine (which controls the rest of the engine).
I think a regular citizen, if they had a car, would be able to maintain it (probably taught by a parent, or Ad-Mec). However, if they have an engine management system, the only ones allowed to open it up as the Ad-Mec. Basically as soon as you need a mechanic you call the Ad-Mec. While I'm talking about cars, I think the low level affiliates of the Ad-Mec may run something like the AA, and if it can't be fixed, tow it to a Ad-Mec facility. It is only the higher technology, technology that controls things, that the Ad-Mec worries about - probably because that tech leads to computer systems that can become very advanced is left unchecked. Other areas of manufacturing that do not include this 'control' element, like building work (brickie or plumber) is non Ad-Mec, but an electrician would be Ad-Mec, or Ad-Mec trained/ union member. I imagine that installing a central heating system would require the Ad-Mec to participate when the boiler goes in. The plumber can put in all the pipes, but the boiler would have to be put in by the Ad-Mec. Further to this, the boiler was made by the Ad-Mec, or at least 'parts' (see previous posts on my terminology during this discussion) are made by the Ad-Mec and fitted into the boiler. In this concept the building work, the basic unit structure, can be built without the Ad-Mec, but the units are to be build to STC standards (like ISO standards) in order to accept Ad-Mec made parts. Getting these STC standards correct would require overview by the Ad-Mec. Moving on to maintenance; I think the CORGI registered engineer that inspects your boiler is 'Ad-Mec', probably a very low ranking member, or if not directly Ad-Mec at least someone that is in an organization overseen by the Ad-Mec. I think this provides a good example of what an 'Ad-Mec' control system supported by the local government basically is. The 'CORGI' management would be Ad-Mec, but the actual operatives would vary. Any professional organization based about tech is a good starting point to model Ad-Mec integration with a given world. In each professional body it may only be the high echelons that are directly 'Ad-Mec'. As such the Ad-Mec have a lot of power, but they do not do everything themselves. Further to this, bodies like the ISO would be pure Ad-Mec. They would perform a similar role, except it instead of 'ISO' it's 'STC'. Philip |
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Post by maldur on Jul 13, 2011 7:51:14 GMT -5
Pretty much what I thought:
The amnufactorum that creates cargo-8 trucks doesnt need to be admech controlled ( it can some rich noble, mechanthouse etcetc).
But the crusial engine control box will be admech made, and shipped in from an admech facility. And the massive machiens that press out bodypanels will also be admech made, and maintained.
Assembly can be done by laymembers(admech trained and/or unionised workers) but the crucial bitz will be (in) directly controlled by admech.
Assembly blueprints/manuals will most likely be also purchased or rented from the admech.
I mean the scientology or church control more in the sense of brainwashing /blind faith. aka how a religion can make people hand over their life savings/critical thinking/immortal soul, and such, over to an idea.
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Post by maldur on Jul 13, 2011 7:58:47 GMT -5
No, I think that I'm going to disagree with this. It requires too much of a specific interpretation of the 40k universe. Why specific to the 40k universe? Religion is in the business of making people act in blind faith. Dont do this or your immortal soul is doomed... Give me 10% of your earnings and we will do the hard work of praying for you... you are possessed by a xenos virus, we have a course to help you get rid of them... Dont eat fish on fridays as you will be doomed.... Kill all that dont believe in our god, it is the only way to honour him ... Never underestimate the power of the institutionalised imaginary friend. If the early admech intended it or not, the religious aspect of the machine cult is a great control tool. |
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Post by Philip S on Jul 13, 2011 8:57:56 GMT -5
Another thought on 'religion', is that the Ad-Mec really do use good ol' science - but it is interpreted as a religion by the rest of the Imperium.
I've heard scientists today say science is a 'faith', that science will eventually answer all the big questions. I have a problem with this view point: having faith in science is fine, but the faith bit is not the 'science' bit. The science is the methods used to find answers. Science is not a belief structure, it's a proof structure. It has nothing to do with faith, it is a set of tools. If someone has 'faith in science', which they are entitled to do, then they have created their own belief structure. They should not call that belief structure 'science'.
The same holds true for the Ad-Mec. The may use science, but those outside may have faith in the Ad-Mec, have faith in their skills, in their knowledge, and faith the Ad-Mec will have the answer.
From the outside the Ad-Mec may look like a religion, they have rituals (like attaching a wrist strap when opening a cogitator to stop static electricity) that can be taken as religious, and some of the stuff they deal with can be taken as ethereal forces (electricity, photonics). They can mess around with your mind (wiping, implants). They use a strange universal language of 'math' that is gobbledygook to most.
To an outsider is could seem like a religion, and if some of today's scientists can get it wrong, getting sucked into political spin, and start blurring the lines, then it's possible the same is true with the Ad-Mec.
(I'm sure some our (toady's) political factions really want to turn science into a 'faith', because it puts it on an equal footing with all the worlds religions. Science is separate, and should be kept separate!)
The lower orders may be a bit confused, a mix of their old 'blind faith' life under the Imperial Church, and the new concepts of 'scientific method'.
Building on top of this would be a belief structure. I think the best focus for this belief structure would be the cult itself. Members have faith in their faction, and more the belief they are doing the right thing. Their beliefs may be informed by science, but the science bit (and all it's trappings) may be separate.
It is the belief bit that the Ad-Mec fall out over. The 'how to apply the knowledge gained from science', not the science itself.
Aside from this I tend to think that any religious belief system of the Ad-Mec is less like western Christianity, or Muslims beliefs, and more like Buddhism.
I also tend to think that the Omnissiah is not an actual god. That it is not viewed as a god within the Ad-Mec. It is more a concept of knowledge investing throughout the Ad-Mec, a gestalt mind of all its members, it's culture, and can be summed up as the 'spirit of the Ad-Mec' (in the same way as the 'spirit of the British', or any other population).
It is those outside that are defining the Ad-Mec on their terms, and the Ad-Mec are no saying anything to counter the claims. So to everyone the Ad-Mec is a secretive religious organization, a cult, but within: the view is very different.
Philip
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Post by maldur on Jul 14, 2011 4:37:53 GMT -5
Interesting...
I think it is not just the outside world.
It might have started out that way, but in current 40k, I think that even the admech believes in their machine god.
Every new recruit from the outside world, would bring a tiny bit of believe into the cult, over thousands of year that would make the AdMech at least part religious.
Hence my idea of a sliding scale from blind faith religion in the lower levels, to a more enlightened stance in the higher tiers.
Which is pretty much the same as your sliding scale from me-cant-icus to me-can-icus.
The replacing meat for metal idea might also come from a (misguided) interpretation of this “quest” for enlightenment
A nice complication is the fact that there is a big chunk of information missing … gaps between theoretical knowledge and the practical application. So the theory behind antigravity might be known. There might also be a machine that can create an antigravity module, but how it does that might not be completely understood.. enough information is there to maintain the machine, but building a new one, or better yet an improved one might be impossible without proscribed or lost tech to assist. Now if someone finds a STC template, they could build one, it might not have the theory behind the antigravity, but it has enough practical knowledge to build the machine, and not knowing how it works could be overshadowed by having the technology. If no one does find the STC, the temptation to commit a tech-heresy to gain the missing information might be too great to ignore, and proscribed tech might be build and used. Similar to the radical inquisitor that uses a deamon to fight chaos, the end justifies the means, while not everyone agrees to that point.
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Post by Philip S on Jul 14, 2011 6:21:57 GMT -5
The more you know the less you take on faith - as in: some bits you took on faith are replaced with provable knowledge, and after this happens a few times you notice the pattern and start o question everything. Kinda leads to 'science'. I imagine, as you do, that the higher up go within the Ad-Mec hierarchy the less they take on faith. It may be a mission of theirs to completely remove 'faith' in regard to the workings of the universe.
I think the path to tech-heresy is an interesting one to explore. I like to think the path is subtle, and in some ways comes about by taking the 'obvious' choice. A bit like my view on the seduction of chaos.
The first thing is to get an idea of what we are dealing with. The STC concept is interesting, but how does it work?
A simple product (a 'component' ie. capacitor) would be straight forward, all the specs, blueprints etc. and probably a 3D engineering model would be in the STC file. The specifics do not really matter for now, but all in: I think an STC file is limited to the product it concerns. I do not think an STC for a capacitor would include the specifics on how it is made, or the machines used to make it. That is another topic, but it does bring to light the idea that an STC may be level specific (ie. matches the tiers I have laid out, or a similar system).
As I see it, the problems come about when we have a more complex product that is made up of hundreds components ('part' - ie. motherboard), or a unit using many parts (ie. a PC) or a structure using hundreds or thousands of units (each containing parts, and components);
Imagine we have the STC for ye ol' Space Shuttle. Would that STC include the STCs on how to make a capacitor, CPU, fuel, or merely reference the other STC?
I take the view that the STC for such a complex bit of kit (Space Shuttle) would reference other STC. The STC for the Space Shuttle is about the specs for the Space Shuttle, the structure, where all the units and parts fit, but all the units and parts are detailed in separate STC.
The Ad-Mec have a lot of STC, the have a lot of STC for components, parts, units, and structures.
If they found an STC for a new tank, they could probably make it because they have all the other STC that make up that tank, the machines to make all those components, parts, and units to spec, the structure to spec etc.
What happens if one piece within the STC of this new tank is not within the Ad-Mec's extensive database?
Lets say something small like a capacitor. The Ad-Mec have STC for type '3204872034-A' and type '3204872034-C', but not '3204872034-B'.
Could A or C replace B? Could they cross the specs of A and C to make a guess at B? Could they work out what the specs of B should be by looking at the schematics?
Considering how small this component is, weighed against the benefits of a new tank design to the Imperium (and the Ad-Mec), would it be logical, 'obvious', to try and figure out the missing component?
What if the missing item was not a component, but a 'part', a 'unit' or 'structure'? How much risk is an Ad-Mec willing to take?
I think this is where the heresy comes in - some are willing to take more risks than others, and some do not want to take any risk at all even if it is 'obvious'.
While the arguments over a component may seem trivial, the 'made up component' may turn up in other STC discovered later. This could cause problems ie. if the made up capacitor was in a non-critical system within the tank, but within a critical, and highly sensitive, system within the new STC, what happens when the 'fake' component is taken are 'sanctified' and put into this new system?
I'm sure flags could be added, STC marked as 'provisional', and after a few systems use the flagged component, then I imagine it can be marked again, and may come under review. While flagged; the item may be difficult to get a hold of. Product using the flagged item may never leave a forge world.
However, what happens if the component is far more important, like a CPU, or new ship requires a specific unit, that could contain hundreds of parts, and thousands of components, that no STC exists for? The Ad-Mec has no idea what components and parts are within the unit, all they know is what the unit can do...
Do they design one to fit?
It would mean a new ship, perhaps one that is bigger, faster, more powerful than any seen before.
What if there are multiple units missing?
Taking the above into context, I would imagine the Ad-Mec could design new stuff (they designed Space Marine armour, bolters, psi-gear, and messed about with all kinds of other stuff).
I think (some) heresy comes out of this design side of things. Once you can design components, parts, and units, why not structures? Why not start compiling data and design new ships, tanks, etc. using the components, parts, and units that are known?
This is where I introduce 'psi-engineering' into the equation. A 'chaos' element. I imagine it's very difficult to design and engineer in the psi sphere.
The Eldar 'sing' wraith bone into existence. Perhaps 'harmonics' is part of the process of balancing psi-gear, and calculating music that 'sounds right' may not be that easy.
Perhaps the problems come about when the Ad-Mec try to mess around with advanced technology (assuming my ideas are in play).
All this combines to make new designs and advances difficult, slow, and prone to stalling. A new design has to fit in with the STC on many levels. Much of the work is cross referencing and double checking that a new STC, or made up replacement STC, fits into the bigger STC database.
There is always a fear that a made up STC could be fundamentally wrong when introduced to a newly discovered STC, or even worse, a replacement part for a sanctified dark age relic...
Would an Magos have the guts to replace a damaged component within a Dark Age relic with a 'provisional' STC component?
How strong would the opinions and emotions be?
Philip
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kage2020
Probie 2
Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Posts: 26
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Post by kage2020 on Jul 14, 2011 11:09:01 GMT -5
There's probably too much for me to reply to in my current jeg-lagged state, but here's trying... When if comes to religion we have two religions co-existing (Ad-Mec and the Imperial church). Only kinda-sorta. I would submit that the situation is more complex than that, something that is attested to by the nature of the Imperial Cult and how it integrates the numerous faiths/religions, i.e. through the same form of acculturation that you see in Roman Britain (c.f. Sulis-Minerva). The Cult Mechanicus has in essence become acculturated through the association of the Emperor with the Omnissiah at first, and then subsequent conflation (at least based upon how the authors seem to be writing things at the moment*) with the Emperor-as-Omnisiah-as-Machine-God. * It's pretty hard to tell what their intent is, but I'm going to err on the side of the benefit of doubt. Ultimately the acculturation is predicated upon an assumption of a common doctrine that does not necessitate the acceptance of the religious doctrines of the two. Meh, I'll shut up about that. The point is that while functionally you might seem to have "two religions co-existing," the interesting potentials go beyond that. Indeed, Abnett hinted at it with Titanicus (hence erring towards the benefit of the doubt). Manufacturing is only one part of the whole. I'm using manufacturing to show how it can be divided up into levels of knowledge. The same divisions can be applied to other branches of the Ad-mec; academia, design (an interesting aspect to explore in regard to the Ad-Mec), maintenance, and running the more advanced tech. A given. It just needed to be clarified since it would be easy to misconstrue the example as the extent. It is also not necessarily the case that the structure associated with manufacture translates over to more... theoretical concerns. I'm not saying that it doesn't, I'm just saying that one doesn't necessarily lead to the other. (For a quick example, one doubts that the concept of the Adeptus Mechanicus "franchise" doesn't necessarily extend to the knowledge to achieve that franchise.) The would be less concerned with purely mechanical, and basic electronics. I think that the example used is causing more "harm" than not, since taken at face-value (a reasonable assumption given the nature of the example and the discussion) is that the Imperium becomes arrested in some pastiche Steampunk clone whereby the Adeptus Mechanicus controls all the little doohickies that might make a society "advanced." It strikes me as a functional re-skin of something like the 30s Flash Gordon--a variation of retrotech settings that turn me a bit cold. Of course, that's where most people seem to be at when it comes down to typical 40k and is one of the reasons that I've taken to thinking of it as " 40k by Gaslight." Pea soupers, bronze machinery, valves and steam power and, then, the mysterious red-cloak adepts that make space travel possible with their grand thinking machines, etc. I can hear overtures of British Imperialism, etc. I can but repeat the preference for the idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus just don't care that Jo(ann) Q Imperium is playing around with semi-conductors since it's not really going to be cutting into the territory. Yeesh, I'm persuading myself out of 40k again since the 40k that has "electronics" as a rarefied skill, that welding becomes a tradition handed down through the family etc. is just not interesting to me. It's cool and all, and I can describe it to the cows come home with the same consistency (if not skill) as the authors but... Meh. It just doesn't seem to consider the grand scale of the Imperium, continually neglecting the continuum between the common lessez faire attitude and the concept of the Imperium as an interventionist agency. Thus, rather than be Debbie Downer I'm going to leave the rest of the post and see to replying to some others. If I feel myself repeating myself ad naueseum then... Well, we shall see. But the crusial engine control box will be admech made, and shipped in from an admech facility. And the massive machiens that press out bodypanels will also be admech made, and maintained. Assembly can be done by laymembers(admech trained and/or unionised workers) but the crucial bitz will be (in) directly controlled by admech. I think that the problem here is that the examples being used are so basically mundane that they're turning me off. It reinforces the " 40k by Gaslight" thing such that when in my mind's eye I see what you guys are talking about at best I get the Connery film League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. A cool film, despite the various flaws, but... Well, there you have it. Perhaps I should just "give up" and consider the 40k universe a camp Steampunk derivative. In terms of the RPG modelling all the information is there in such things as GURPS Steampunk, Technomancer and the like... Headtubes and aethyr machines to difference engines, mad inventors, and steam-driven spaceships that use brain-souls to traverse the great unknown. Hell, I can knock that universe up in my sleep since it comes with certain conventions. In some ways it's just basically another re-skinning of the concept of "40kFantasy," or modelling the 40k universe as a Tolkien-inspired medieval fantasy--things just end up making more science. Heck, it even fits the language. "Forget about science" because, well, what's the point? Why specific to the 40k universe? As noted, because it is assuming too much about the objective "truth" perceived by an individual within the Imperium especially vis-a-vis the interrelationship (or not) of the two "Cults." Furthermore, it seems to make assumptions about the nature of "religion" and the stance that an individual takes to it. But there we go. To an outsider is could seem like a religion, and if some of today's scientists can get it wrong, getting sucked into political spin, and start blurring the lines, then it's possible the same is true with the Ad-Mec. At this point concepts of phenomenology and the anthropology of religion come to play--somatic rituals, rotes, etc. This is the predicate upon which the hierarchical approach to the Adeptus Mechanicus is based, or at least it is in my mind. It is the belief bit that the Ad-Mec fall out over. The 'how to apply the knowledge gained from science', not the science itself. It's an interesting analogy insofar as you define a difference between the orthodoxy and the "heretics," or those interested in science as an "object" (put it in a box and venerate) and those that use it as a method. That basically encapsulates what you seem to be trying to say. I think it is not just the outside world. It might have started out that way, but in current 40k, I think that even the admech believes in their machine god. I do not see there being a single issue with the Cult Mechanicus believing in the "Machine God," though that in no way means that they think of it as a bearded robot on a silver-lined, contra-grav cloud. With that said, there's a far cry from accepting that as a given truth (which I would) and extending that to mean that those that are not initiated into the Cult Mechanicus believe in the Machine God or even machine spirits (etc). Hence my idea of a sliding scale from blind faith religion in the lower levels, to a more enlightened stance in the higher tiers. This seems to be a reiteration of the hierarchical nature of the Adeptus Mechanicus, sliding from "Me-can't-icus" at the lower ranks to the "Me-can-icus" in the upper echelons, as you note. knowledge, and after this happens a few times you notice the pattern and start o question everything. Kinda leads to 'science'. I imagine, as you do, that the higher up go within the Ad-Mec hierarchy the less they take on faith. It may be a mission of theirs to completely remove 'faith' in regard to the workings of the universe. I strongly doubt that the former leads to the latter. Consider if you will the New Physics (which isn't so new, but there we go). I think the path to tech-heresy is an interesting one to explore. I like to think the path is subtle, and in some ways comes about by taking the 'obvious' choice. A bit like my view on the seduction of chaos. You have already outlined this, though I termed it as the difference between viewing "science" as an object (orthodox) and viewing it as a method (radical/heresy). The Ad-Mec have a lot of STC, the have a lot of STC for components, parts, units, and structures. Interesting argument, but one that I shall leave for the moment except to point out that you might want to revisit the original description of the STC system since it's not just about the component that the STC is involved in. The Eldar 'sing' wraith bone into existence. Perhaps 'harmonics' is part of the process of balancing psi-gear, and calculating music that 'sounds right' may not be that easy. Begone you foul vestiges of Tolkien-esque fantasy and take your spellsingers and bards with you. Ah well, back to magic... |
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Post by maldur on Jul 15, 2011 4:28:09 GMT -5
I think the problem with this discussion is we are trying to talk about several quetsions at once.
How does the admech work?
How does the admech work in relation to the rest of the imperium?
How does the admech work in relation to the rest of the universe?
What is the tech they work with? And is this important?
What dont they know?
What is lost in time? And why? And how does the admech cope? Or the imperium?
What is a STC? The templates? The constructor? Both? Neither? Does it matter?
What is the nature of religion? And within the 40k world?
Is psy science, or nature or magic?
How does this all relate to sciror? Or other game worlds?
And I think the original question: Does anyone have ideas that can be used in a defenisive bunker/system to survive the waxing and waning of magic within a earthdawn/shadowrun world?
Note: I used rather mundane examples to make me understand what I am trying to say. And I find the difference between "now", and the 40k universe interesting and hard to describe. We all have a gut feeling on how the 40k world works, but at least I find it hard to put that into words.
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Post by Philip S on Jul 15, 2011 4:42:10 GMT -5
In regard to the examples given, they are placeholders, the same way 'Latin' is used as a placeholder for High Gothic in 40K (High Gothic is not Latin!). High Gothic occupies the same space in the Imperium as Latin does in our western world. All the tech I mentioned as placeholders have to be scaled up to Ad-Mec level. You may know that I think electronics is several generations behind the Ad-Mec, and so electronics is not really something they are probably going to care about. I used electronics as an example of which level of technology, relative to our technology and society, the Ad-Mec would be interested in. It is the level of tech relative to society's technology I was trying to illustrate. I place the Ad-Mec technology far higher than what we have today. If the Imperium turned up right now, I doubt we have anything the Ad-Mec would be interested in, or wish to control. They may destroy it as a security risk, but not want to control it. This is down to my interpretation. I mention as a counter to your '40K by gaslight' worries. You can have highly advanced electronics in my vision of 40K, you could even have a world like ours (for a short while before coming under full Imperial control). Getting back to the RPG side of things I do think electronics is a rare skill. This is a coincidence that it correlates to my view. I think the Ad-Mec are aware of electronics, in an archeological sense, and as such it is rare. The Imperium is not a society full of electronic gizmos. However the RPG does not match my view as they do not have 'biophotonics' and 'what-nots' as a skill (I would say the priest has to be a far higher level). I imagine that the Ad-Mec control a lot of technology, but it is the high end: FTL, anti-grav, brain reprogramming, void shields, power fields, field armours, plasma engines, energy conversion tech etc. along with lesser tech like Space Marine power armour, lasgun, etc. I imagine the Ad-Mec can hack electronics, but they know about EMP (one of the reason they see old fashions silicon chips (ie. our high end) as inherently insecure. Even military grade hardened PCs would be no match for the Ad-Mec!). In my vision there is no place for electronics at the high end - it's 'obsolete'. If this concept is applied - how long before electronics is replaced by 'biophotonics' or other 'bio-computer' on a world coming into the Imperial fold. This does not get rid of '40K by gaslight', it is possible, but I also like the idea that many other worlds are also possible to. I find it interesting to ponder what a world would be like with a mix of super high end Ad-Mec gear, next to strong presence of 'green' systems, recycling, and 'back to basics' living (as part of a economic, moral, and cultural shift). Outside of 40K I add in networking, 'online life' as part of the overall package - specifically to avoid boredom living the rural life (even if that rural life is wrapped up in an Ecorium, within an very urban environment outside). I suppose it ties into English ideas of a nice country garden... in many ways it's a bit like living in a cottage, with a (massive) kitchen garden, green tech reprocessing, and internet access. The fact these cottages are stacked 50 levels high does not not distract from what they are. An Englishman's home is his castle - in an Ecroium that is exactly what you get. Sorta. In America it would be a 'gated community'. Sorta. Careful what you wish for  Philip |
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